Question:
Submitters: A question about three prayers, why?
?
2008-10-25 22:11:00 UTC
I would like to start off my question by thanking (some of) the Submitters for reporting my question, it's a great way to get away from something you don't have an answer to. But, I tend to save back-ups of my questions just in case things like these happen, so here it is all over again =)

‏ حافظوا على الصلوات والصلاة الوسطى وقوموا لله قانتين

"Guard strictly the [obligatory] prayers AND the middle prayer and stand before Allah, devoutly obedient." - 2:238

If there are three prayers in total (according to Edip Yuskel and Reformist Submitters), why does this verse suggest there are more?

In the English language, two grammatical numbers exist: singular and plural. In the Arabic language, however, there are three grammatical numbers: singular (1), dual (2), and plural (3+). Referring to the Arabic verse, we have three important points to look at:

- Grammatical number usage
- The use of the conjunction "wa" and its mistranslation
- The number of prayers

The word "prayer" conjugated with the addition of the grammatical number prefix are as follow:

الصلاه - The prayer (As-Salaah) - singular (one), definite
الصلاتين - The prayers (As-Salaatayn) - dual (two), definite, genitive case
الصلوات - The prayers (As-Salawaat) - plural (three or more), definite

The key phrase within the verse above is: الصلوات والصلاة الوسطى

The word being used for "prayers" in Arabic is that of the third case:

الصلوات - The prayers (three or more, plural suffix, not dual)

والصلاة الوسطى - And the Middle Prayer (1 prayer)

We can conclude from this verse that there are over three prayers. The grammatical number usage suggests 3+ prayers AND the middle prayer. This will bring the total number of prayers to 4 or more. Since "the middle prayer" also suggests it is an "odd" number of prayers and there are more than 4, the total number will be 5 (by reference of times mentioned in the Quran).

Submitters will bring in the argument of "why" only three are mentioned by name and others are mentioned by time. The three prayers mentioned by name are: Fajr (dawn), Wusta (Middle), and Esha (night). So, what are the definitions of "Fajr" and "Esha"?

Fajr = Dawn
Esha = Night

Now, aren't those also mentioned as times? Why are the others rejected, as they are also times? Another argument I would like to bring in is the issue of code-19. If you accept code-19, why do you not accept that this code also confirms 5 prayers? Read this article in which RK states the 5 times of prayers, supported by code-19.

In conclusion, my question really is, why do you not recognize that there are 5 prayers if it is supported in the Quran, and code-19 which you all have come to accept. Do not bother replying if you are not answering my question. Do not bring in any topic unless you have provided an answer to my question first. Peace be upon you all.
Eleven answers:
anonymous
2008-10-26 04:32:23 UTC
God gave us the times for the Salat (contact Prayers) in the Quran :



(1) The Dawn Prayer (Fajr in Arabic) given in 11:114, 24:58

And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night



(2) The Noon Prayer (Zuher in Arabic) , given in 17:78 and 30:18

Establish regular prayers - at the sun's decline till the darkness of the night, and the morning prayer and reading: for the prayer and reading in the morning carry their testimony.



(3) The Afternoon Prayer (Asr in Arabic), given in 2:238

Guard strictly your (habit of) prayers, especially the Middle Prayer; and stand before Allah in a devout (frame of mind).



(4) The sunset Prayer (Maghrib in Arabic), given in 11:114

And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night: For those things, that are good remove those that are evil: Be that the word of remembrance to those who remember (their Lord):



(5) The Night Prayer (Isha in Arabic), given in 24:58

O ye who believe! let those whom your right hands possess, and the (children) among you who have not come of age ask your permission (before they come to your presence), on three occasions: before morning prayer; the while ye doff your clothes for the noonday heat; and after the late-night prayer: these are your three times of undress: outside those times it is not wrong for you or for them to move about attending to each other: Thus does Allah make clear the Signs to you: for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.



Allah orders us to do our prayers at specific times, and then He tells us what these times are.





their answers are from RK's pocket, not from the holy Quran.
ma b
2008-10-25 22:26:16 UTC
1} FIVE PRAYERS A DAY AND THEIR TIME :



God gave us the times for the Salat (contact Prayers) in the Quran :



(1) The Dawn Prayer (Fajr in Arabic) given in 11:114, 24:58

(2) The Noon Prayer (Zuher in Arabic) , given in 17:78 and 30:18

(3) The Afternoon Prayer (Asr in Arabic), given in 2:238

(4) The sunset Prayer (Maghrib in Arabic), given in 11:114

(5) The Night Prayer (Isha in Arabic), given in 24:58



As you can see from the Quran, God tells us to do our Contact prayers (Salat) at specific times, and then He tells us what these times are.



{2} TAKBEER (Glorification of God), Allahu Akbar : The Takbeer (glorification of God) by saying Allahu Akbar for example can be found in 17:111, 2:185, 22 :37, 74:3, and 29:45



[17:110-111] " Say, "Call Him GOD, or call Him the Most Gracious; whichever name you use, to Him belongs the best names." You shall not utter your Contact Prayers (Salat) too loudly, nor secretly; use a moderate tone. And proclaim: "Praise be to GOD, who has never begotten a son, nor does He have a partner in His kingship, nor does He need any ally out of weakness," and magnify Him constantly (Kabberho Takbeera)."



See also, the files, "Magnify God" and " God's beautiful names"



{3} READING SURA 1, FATEHA, IN SALAT : The mathematical evidence for Sura 1 is overwhelming and should be reviewed. Check the file "Beyond Probability" by Abdullah Arik.



{4} BOWING DOWN (Rukoo) AND FALLING PROSTRATE (Sajood): Where in the Quran;



[22:77] "O you who believe, you shall bow, prostrate, worship your Lord, and work righteousness, that you may succeed. "



See also, 2:43, 2:125, 5:55, 9:112, 22:26 and 48:29 For falling prostrate also see; 3:113, 4:102, 7:206, 13:15, 15:98, 16:49, 17:107, 19:58, 22:18, 25:64, 41:37, 48:29, 53:62, 76:26, and 96:19, WHAT WE SAY WHEN WE BOW DOWN : "Subhana Rabbya Al-Azeem), can be found in 56:74



[56:74] "You shall glorify the name of your Lord, the Great. ' (Fa-Sabbeh Be-Ism Rabbeka Al-Azeem)



WHAT WE SAY WHEN WE GET UP FROM BOWING DOWN: "Sami-a Allahu Le-man Hamedahu" (God hears those who praise Him)



[3:38] "That is when Zachariah implored his Lord: "My Lord, grant me such a good child; You are the Hearer of the prayers."



AND,



[52:48] "You shall steadfastly persevere in carrying out your Lord's command - you are in our eyes - and glorify and praise your Lord when you get up."



WHAT WE SAY WHEN WE FALL PROSTRATE: "Subhana Rabbya Al-A'ala " can be found in 87:1



[87:1] "Glorify the name of your Lord, the Most High." (Sabbeh Ism Rabbeka Al-A'ala)
xyz
2008-10-26 03:03:39 UTC
Your question is important, but it is very small and insignificant COMPARED to many other questions.



If we pray the 5 in 3 times in day, it is not because we are lost, but it is because we believe that Allah is fine with it. No bad intentions.



However, if we realize that it is not fine with Allah, surely, we will change the 3 to 5. And i am sure, Allah will forgive us, because He is the wisest and all knowing of our intentions.



What you are questioning is our interpretations of the physical matters of praying. When to do it? how to hold our hands so that our prayers be accepted by Allah? and such questions.



It is important to have clean body and cloth while praying, but what does all these mean if the person does not pray with clean intentions, and a clean heart?



It is indeed our spiritual manners we should be obssessed about and NOT the physical matters.
anonymous
2008-10-26 00:10:12 UTC
24:58 يايها الذين ءامنوا ليستذنكم الذين ملكت ايمنكم والذين لم يبلغوا الحلم منكم ثلث مرت من قبل صلوة الفجر وحين تضعون ثيابكم من الظهيرة ومن بعد صلوة العشاء ثلث عورت لكم ليس عليكم ولا عليهم جناح بعدهن طوفون عليكم بعضكم على بعض كذلك يبين الله لكم الءايت والله عليم حكيم



24:58 O you who acknowledge, let those whom are under your contract and have not yet attained puberty request your permission regarding three times: Before the dawn contact prayer, and when you take off your attire from the heat of the noon, and after the dusk contact prayer. These are three private times for you. Other than these times, it is not wrong for you or them to intermingle with one another. God thus clarifies the revelations for you. God is Knowledgeable, Wise



and you know the verse regarding salat ul wusta



that makes 3 salats by name.

if you have other 2 salats by name in Glorious Quran kindly produce it , i will be very happy to go back to 5 salat.



3 salats CLEARLY mentioned,without any ambiguity.

one thing more honestly its not good for you,to start questioning others like that,have you ever seen us questioning like that ?

some one post a question and we just reply it according to Glorious Quran,every one gives his/her point of view, but in your case,you take it very personal.which is not good for you.its only a suggestion.nothing personal



rumaitha one more thing,kindly do answer the following if you wish to

do you find Glorious quran complete/detailed/perfect

as in following verses 6:38,6:114-115,7:52,10:37,12:111 , 41:3

just give me yes or no.

one more thing ,we can always have debate,and lets not have arguments,it gives a bad taste to other readers,it seems that you are making ego issue,we would like to have healthy debates.in a very friendly/pleasant manner,if not it doesnt bother us either.

its 2 am here,will be leaving tomorrow,and will be back in after noon,Insha Allah,i will resume,in a friendly manner.Shah who is a very knowledgable person will give you accurate answers.

well i can not talk about others,but Shah and myself,we do not idolize any one, not even Prophets/Messengers,be it Rashad Khalifa.we got the message Allah Alone Quran Alone,so thats what we do,let submission.org follow Rashad's appendexes.we are very Cautious about it,we always put Glorious Quran FIRST on every thing,and we Trust our Lord Allah Allmighty,for Allah is The Teacher of Glorious Quran,Allah shows us His Allmighty's Path.We Trust if something is NOT in Glorious Quran,then it doesnt exist in any man made books.

however we are NOT infallible we are all humans and we make mistakes.we are not above mistakes like any other human.



17:78 You shall hold the contact prayer at the setting of the sun, until the darkness of the night; and the Quran at dawn, the Quran at dawn has been witnessed



The time for evening (esha) prayer starts from the declining of the sun in the horizon and lasts until the darkness of the night. The Quran contains sufficient details about the sala prayer. See 24:58; 11:1124; 38:32.



17:78 gives suficient description of Esha and Fajr





ok now that we have come to an agreement on one point and that is Glorious Quran is Complete/Detailed/Perfect.

we are certain 3 salats by name in Glorious Quran,makes number of salat "Detailed".there is no ambiguity in it.

did Allah Allmighty forget to mention other 2 salats by name . the answer is NO.

therefore since other 2 salats are not mentioned by name,then there are 3 Salats to be performed,this is what we believe and trust in.

we give Quranic point of view,be it y/a or elsewhere.you are free to give your point of view to the questions on y/a which you think is right.

i hope the matter is resolved.

we have given adequate answers to your questions regarding Rashad Khalifa, yes we believe he was a messenger.if you have any issue regarding submission.org,best thing would be,email them and get direct answers from them.they may or they may not satisfy you,thats between you and them.



no further debate,on this subject.

Salam
M S
2008-10-26 01:03:02 UTC
ok, you can fill news paper in no time, what is the point?

we SUBMITTERS are followers of the noble Sunnah= teaching of rasool Allah sal'la Allah alihi wa sal'la

stop the non-sense

ya_shami@yahoo.ca

BTW

me= grandpa
FTL
2008-10-26 05:49:11 UTC
Not everyone follows Tafsir ibn Kathir of the Holy Qur'an.
Shah
2008-10-25 22:38:34 UTC
Regarding the code - 19:

I have "NOT" accepted the code-19, BLINDLY. I have verified certain counts in order to put a belief in it. Also I examined most of the evidences that Khalifa and his followers put up as proof.



Regarding this, I have MY OWN reservations. I do accept "Code-19" as a miracle. At the same time, I ALSO can see certain manipulations by Khalifa OR his followers that are "Dangerous". They have the potential to "BACK FIRE".



I would term this as "EMOTIONALLY OVERPOWERED ATTITUDE", where they LOST all prudency. And opened up the loops into areas where the number of probabilities will increase to dangerous limits.



While I do accept code-19, I do NOT accept it as "SUBMISSION" people propagate it.



Let me give you one example:



"Khalifa while trying to prove "Salat" with code-19, stated that the lips meet 19 times while one recites Surah Fateha. This proves that Surah Fateha should be recited in Arabic."



I have / had SERIOUS objection to what Khalifa said and I wrote back to submission to give me the details as "HOW" Khalifa could distinguish between an "Inspiration" and an "Inference". The email I received did NOT have any answer, not to say a concrete answer.



1- The verse :4:43 clearly tells us that the deliverer of salat MUST be aware of WHAT he/she is stating to God. It is like an audience and direct contact with God. It is something VERY clear.



Most of the deliverers of the Salat, just shoot the salat off the mouth with NO idea as to what they are saying.



2- The salat came through Abraham. And as per reports Abraham's language was "Armaic", which no matter how similar may have been to Arabic is still NOT Arabic.



Therefore WE are ABSOLUTELY UNJUSTIFIED in making this a rule. It is against LOGIC and also against the Quran.



---

Now what am I doing here. Am I placing code-19 above logic. "NO" !!!!!



I am not doing so. The two must go hand in hand.



Being good at mathematics I can foresee certain dangerous dimensions and manipulations. At the SAME time, I have absolutely NO doubts what so ever that code-19 is a 100% sign and a great miracle.



So I do NOT accept thing even from a messenger without first analyzing them and also verifying them from the Quran.



---

To me the message of the messenger is : God Alone, Quran Alone.



And I do admit that "Khalifa's" writings and discoveries enlightened me to greater heights than even "G. A. Pervaiz".



To me the messenger is an example in the sense that he did stand up against all odds and upheld the message. Stood by the truth firmly and strongly. And how he did it without asking for a return. And how he rejected the mass disinformation and pursued the truth. This is the example in the messenger. Not how he made love to his wife, and how he used to put water in his nose and how he used to eat and drink etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.......



Hope the above explains.



---

@Rumaitha

Ideally speaking, for me the Quran should be a book where it should provide COMPLETE information, to ANYONE who is living isolated on an island and does NOT have ANY other book.



However this is not the case at least to my knowledge. Even if it is, my knowledge has not advanced to the point of finding it out. Also I can see that God does point out certain references that lie OUTSIDE the Quran i.e. the months of Hajj (saying that they are well known), the Surah 52 or 53, which points out that the details of Zakat are in Mushaff Ibrahim and Musa.



Coming to the rakats of salat. The submission people and Khalifa state that 24434 is a multiple of 19. But this has a SMALL weakness. Let us assume that each salat is composed ONLY of 2, 3 or 4 rakats. Under such a condition, we find that there are 13 possible combinations of 5 digit numbers composed of 2, 3 or 4 digits that make up a number that is divisible by 19.



This means that 24434 is NOT a "Unique" combination / number. That also means that first the INFORMATION of 24434 should be available before hand and then it can be confirmed from the Quran. This means that the man on island cannot reach the conclusion of 24434. To me this is an unidealistic situation.



I try to reach the IDEALISTIC situation.



Now coming to Khalifa, MOST of the evidence is easy and VERY evident. There is NO need to go any further. However in their EOA (Emotionally overpowered attitude) they exhibit a certain phenomena which CANNOT be applied ACCROSS the board.



You see in Mathematics, you need to master just one formula and apply it correctly. Then you can solve ANY question and exercise that involves that formula.



Now Khalifa / submitters SOMETIMES would put the gematrcial values of "Khalifa" and sometimes of "Rashad Khalifa" in front of chapter numbers and sometimes just the number of verses to form a certain number that is divisible by 19. They would do it to verses that mention "Messenger" and is in commonality to both Khalifa and Mohd.



To me this is a bit objectionable. Because if you apply such an method then there should be CONSISTENCY in such application. IT should NOT be inconsistent.



Actually in many places Khalifa has other indications which he knowingly and unknowingly mentions. And these are USUALLY more than enough for a BELIEVER. Khalifa and his followers should realize that the Quran is for "Believers" (Mutaqeen and Momeneen). IT is NOT meant for the non-believers. They try to pick out every possible combination to make it convincing. That opens up more possibilities and makes their own methods inconsistent.



That is one reason, why I do not put my faith in EVERYTHING they may try to prove thru 19. I have to analyze it BEFORE I can reach certainty in the matter.



Regarding the 2 verses, I am fully convinced. And I think I have mentioned it quite elaborately EVEN for those who do not wish to get into mathematics of the evidence.



--

@Rumaitha

Instead of bombarding people and "Fighting Falsehood" who is quite new. I think the first thing to find out is "What is Salat".



I mean most of the muslims keep arguing about a religious practice but not at what really matters.



To me it is rather very strange to see that an entity like "God" would be so anxious at the fine details of the salat, which He himself did not bother to describe (as they are described by Hadithiites). And even more astonishing is the part that if hadithiites and Rashad Khalifa are true then this "God" who is supposed to be the MOST wise, is like a small child who would clap his hands at the performance of the salat and would not bother if the person is cutting throats, involved in massive corruptions, mass persecution, insolent and inappropriate behavior.



I mean it is ridiculous to see if God would only be satisfied with a peripheral ritual and its details and would turn a blind eye to the other affairs. This is COMPLETELY out of logic.



Take an INDEPTH analysis of this word in the Quran and I am sure it will reveal you a lot of other things than just a peripheral ritual.

---

@Rumaitha

Do me a favor, pick out ALL the verses from the Quran where the people in Jahanam are addressed i.e. those who enter and those who abide in it i.e. on and after day of judgment.



And see how many verses state that they did NOT follow the RITUAL of salat.



Also, keep in mind the verses 2:62, 5:69 and the verse 19:59, 22:40 - 41, surah 107 and 11:87.



I want to see what you can deduce !!!

----

@Rumaitha

If you were smart enough to know what I mean, you wouldn't have put this question in the first place. Your whole attitude would have been drastically different. But unfortunately u insist on ego. I have recently seen an answer from you on another question and I would say it is disappointing.



You may continue on your path. We are contended in our path. I have already given you an answer. Even if I conclude it is 5 not 3, I don't owe an explanation and answer to u. It is for us and is a personal matter between us and God.



You have a long way to reach your 40. You may discuss all this with some good submitter / Reformist when you reach near your maturity (40).



-----

@Rumaitha

It is the height of your ego and arrogance that makes you a failure to appreciate and accept anyone's answers. Else I have already provided you very satisfactory answers. If you find that they are not, then I guess you possess a below average I.Q level. In that case, thank you for confirming me that I have been wasting my time.



BTW, I was NOT wasting time with you. I was showing a lot to the bystanders and observers. Some of them benefitted a "LOT". And you can feel that, even though you wouldn't like to acknowledge that (as always).



Regarding 40, forget it, you are not my target audience. I have already pointed that out to you earlier and I don't feel like repeating things over and over again.



The bottom line is that I have crossed 40 and God will direct me to the direction I have chosen. With regards to you, you have a long way to go. Clearly your path is a path of blind ego and self loving and self centered behavior. And if u fail to correct that by 40, then God will direct you to even greater heights of arrogance and ego.



In any case we all will know our judgment on the day of judgment. So let us wait for that decisive round.
FF
2008-10-26 00:22:26 UTC
Shah & Muhammad K gave good answers.



Hadithite women don't even pray at all (depending on the time of the month) even though they're supposed to. That's worse than praying even only one prayer during the day.
soofi-sophisticated
2008-10-26 01:50:45 UTC
‏ حافظوا على الصلوات والصلاة الوسطى وقوموا لله قانتين



read qunut
Staff of Moses عصى موسى
2008-10-26 09:58:37 UTC
I think you are arabian , right ?



i talked with you before about Mut`a if it`s halal or haram .



however , about your question here :



Sahih Muslim

http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=1&Rec=1518

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http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=1&Rec=1522

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http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=1&Rec=1523

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http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=1&Rec=1526

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http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/hier.asp?Doc=1&n=1516

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Mosnad Ahmad

http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=6&Rec=1886

-

Mawt`e Malik

http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=7&Rec=444



--=-=---

@ Asker

Wa`alikom Al-Salam sis



sorry , i checked them before i post it and they were work perfectly .



but now it seems the whole saudi goverment islamic web site http://al-islam.com/ don`t work .



probably it`s temporarily .
uniqu3(skyline)
2008-10-25 22:41:05 UTC
wtf...3? are you jewish.. u got a bro?>


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